Three Way Rumors w/Det & TB, We've seen the tweet... what's next Options

[err0r]

Name calling and putting words in other's mouths. Nice. No one said Crawford was a far superior play. Get your facts straight man. Don't be mis-quoting people.

Ichiro can't hold Crawford's jock !

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the statements.

I think this is yet another case of people looking at the simply incredible hand eye coordination and contact ichiro is capable of and his true ceiling or potential for what kind of hitter he could be if he wanted to versus the salary and position he presents on our team.

I think the argument could be made for certain players to improve their OBP (Lopez) and its completely justified but I can't help but notice this come up year after year. I think its really nitpicking with ichiro.

Sure, you could argue that he might raise his obp by taking more first pitches, but how would this compare to the amount of first pitch hits he might not get?

Ichiro has been extremely successful in his ways, we've got the best right fielder in the game today.

I wonder how often Angels fans wished Vlad would take a pitch.

[SABR Matt]

Octobre...lying is bad for the soul. YOUR WORDS state:

"Ichiro can't hold Crawford's jock" Now tell me...how was I supposed to read that?

[senior octobre]

Octobre...lying is bad for the soul. YOUR WORDS state:

"Ichiro can't hold Crawford's jock" Now tell me...how was I supposed to read that?

Now I'm lying ? How did you conclude that ? I encluded that in my answer. That is all you have ?
If lying is bad for the soul then you better look within son. And again, you are shouting at everyone. Give people credit for being able to read. No need to use caps. Somewhere between reading it and comprehending it you lose things or you just change it (grasping at straws) to save your position. It's okay to be wrong.

err0r writes:

(...Sure, you could argue that he might raise his obp by taking more first pitches, but how would this compare to the amount of first pitch hits he might not get?

I'm not nit picking Ichiro. I understand he has had a .400 obp like only once but I'm cool with that. The idea for a leadoff hitter to take pitches is so the rest of the team can get an idea of what a opposing starter has, to make him work and get his pitch count up. It is not to increase Ichiro's obp. The thing that drives me nuts is Ichiro swing early in the first inning and the second hole guy doing the same and sometimes the three hole guy. So the opposing starter finishes up with a 5 pitch inning. It's understandable when a guy has awesome stuff.

This post has been edited by senior octobre: Nov 26 2009, 06:15 AM

[Lonnie]

This thread is on the verge of being closed if the level of personal attacks doesn't stop.

Lonnie

[Sancho Panza]

Now I'm lying ?

No, you're not, and in a way you might be right about "can't hold jockstrap" because this got completely out of hand!

[SABR Matt]

I already gave you all of the correct information octobre. You refused to listen to the actual data and instead decided to stick with your incorrect assumption and deny that you had implied that Crawford was a superior player. What else SHOULD I say? Facts don't work with you.

[CrewChief]

If either Octobre or Matt refer to each other, or their posts again in this topic, it will be closed. If either of you whine about it, you will have a problem with me. Enough is enough. Just let it go.

Go have some turkey and have a great Thanksgiving.

[Leo Gomez]

Bumping the thread to share the following from mlbtr:

Hearing Tigers sought young pitchers Brandon Morrow and Shawn Kelley for Jackson. Mariners apparently said no.

So the possibility of Jackson may be dead - but I never want to say never with Z. Either way, if true, this gives us a pretty good read on how highly the Ms hold Jackson, and what other teams may be willing to offer for Morrow and/or Kelley.

Given how long the Ms have been waiting to see Morrow as a full-time SP, I can't say I blame 'em for turning the deal down. As for Kelley, the bullpen was out of gas by the end of last season, they need more arms like his, not fewer.

[phredmojo]

Bumping the thread to share the following from mlbtr:



So the possibility of Jackson may be dead - but I never want to say never with Z. Either way, if true, this gives us a pretty good read on how highly the Ms hold Jackson, and what other teams may be willing to offer for Morrow and/or Kelley.

Given how long the Ms have been waiting to see Morrow as a full-time SP, I can't say I blame 'em for turning the deal down. As for Kelley, the bullpen was out of gas by the end of last season, they need more arms like his, not fewer.

the kelly's of the world are easily replaceable, especially for this team. ever since ayala went to work for 7-11 fulltime wev'e been able to build a good pen. the morrow's of the world arent however

[Beastie Boys]

Morrow is way to on and off to ever tell what he's going to turn out to be. He could turn out to be a big dull dud. He's good at times, and flat out worse at others. I know everybody goes through their hot/cold streaks but Morrow is a different case. I don't think he's going to pan out to be that great of a pitcher in the big leagues. He's got a good arm, but I actually find Morrow easily replaceable.

[MtGrizzly]

Jack turned down Morrow and Kelley for Jackson? Dude has got brass rattling around down there.

[phredmojo]

Jack turned down Morrow and Kelley for Jackson? Dude has got brass rattling around down there.

not really. considering the real jackso showed up post allstar break.



5.07/1.53

[err0r]

I'm glad Z didn't pull the trigger. I guess I'm just a sucker for potential.

Jackson hasn't really been good aside from last year, and even then, it wasn't that spectacular.

I'll take my chances with Morrow.

[Lonnie]

Morrow came up to early but as he gets more MLB experience he will get his head back on. I think he'll be a consistent valuable tool as a starter or the pen sooner than later.

Maybe Jack didn't trade him because he sees Morrows value. Remember, Jack saw Morrow go bucket head this year and didn't give up on him.

What really retarded Morrow's development was, as you noted, coming up to the big club too early and in the wrong capacity. Had Morrow been given a chance to put in 150 to 200 innings as a starter in the minors he'ld be twice the pitcher he is today.

Hold on, I take that back. Had he put in those innings in the minors he would actually BE a pitcher today and not a thrower.

Lonnie

[SABR Matt]

Actrually, Lonnie, Morrow's problem hasn't been unintelligent throwing of too many fastballs...in his big league tour, his problem appeared to be an inability to find a consistent grip on his breaking ball, producing a very mushy pitch when he didn't throw it correctly and contributing to his lack of command. I don't think it's a given that had Morrow stayed in the minors and pitches as a starter, he'd have definitely mastered throwing his off-speed pitches. That's an assumption a lot of fans make without any real evidence aside from the hue and cry of talent scouts.

[SABR Matt]

When was it apparent that Morrow was overwhelmed by big league hitters, brokenbat? When he was running ERAs in the 2s for 4 straight months out of the pen? When he was fanning 9 per game? When he was a dominant high-leverage set-up man in 2007?

No...Morrow was most definitely *NOT* ooverwhelmed by big league hitters. He was pitching just fine out of the pen aside from occasional bouts of wildness. What did Morrow in this year was a lack of spring training (due to arm problems) and a bout of wildness. Which always has been and may always be part of Morrow's game. Overhwlmed? Try watching the games...he was the exact opposite of overwhelmed.

[htownm]

I was thinking he was overwhelmed about the time he went to a starter and had his little melt down and said he wanted to go back to the pen.

Don't know if that's true or not, but it was funny as hell

[SABR Matt]

Look again at the historical account, brokenbat...

Morrow started five games (Five!) in 2008...one of which was a domination of the Yankees that nearly resulted in a no-hitter...LOL He had some mixed results starting, but he claimed he wanted to go back to the bullpen because of his diabetes...not because he didn't feel like he could start and get MLB hitters out. He also later retracted said claims, and admitted that the real reason he wanted to go back to the pen was that the Mariners gave him a choice...pitch i relief (as the closer) or start...IN AAA! He wanted to stay a big leaguer. Can you blame him? He was dominating big league hitters all through 2008 as a short reliever. He was confident that he belonged in the big leagues...why pitch in AAA? So he went to the pen...then he got whacked around because he never got a chance to get into game shape with his elbow problem in ST...so then he agreed to go down to AAA and use that opportunity to pitch himself back into the rotation where he really wanted to be. The fact that when he came up, he had deeply mixed results doesn't change my overall impression that Morrow has no problem at all getting big leaguers out when he throws his game as intended. He never was overmatched...not EVER. Wild yes. Inconsistent mechanically? Sure. Overmatched...not on your life.

[MtGrizzly]

FWIW, Churchill says that the deal was a little bigger - Morrow, Kelly and maybe Tui for Jackson, Cale Lorg and Brandon Inge. Shrug.

Just curious Matt - what % chance would you give Morrow to ever have a season equivalent to Jackson's 2009?

[SABR Matt]

Well Grizzly...I'm not Morrow's biggest fan here...I like him, but I'm not one who thinks he's inches away from busting out the 20 win seasons...can Morrow have a 3.86 ERA season? You betcha. I think he's at least 50/50 to do that by 2012, let alone EVER. And it could happen as soon as this coming season, though it won't be over that many innings (the most he's ever thrown in a full season is like 130, so he's going to need to be stretched into larger workloads slowly...and that's the real problem with his lack of starting experience before 2009).