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Ozzie Guillen


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#1
Pirata Morado

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I know this is going to raise a lot of controversy but anyway here it comes:

Why on earth was Ozzie suspended by the Marlins?

Unless I'm missing something all he did was say that he loves Fidel Castro, right?

I know Fidel isn't a hero for the US but that's not the point. The point is that I thought anyone is entitled to have an opinion, his is in favor of Fidel, so what? Can't he express his opnion freely? What am I missing here?
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#2
DaddyO

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I know this is going to raise a lot of controversy but anyway here it comes:

Why on earth was Ozzie suspended by the Marlins?

Unless I'm missing something all he did was say that he loves Fidel Castro, right?

I know Fidel isn't a hero for the US but that's not the point. The point is that I thought anyone is entitled to have an opinion, his is in favor of Fidel, so what? Can't he express his opnion freely? What am I missing here?


Well, he's FREE to. Nobody is suggesting arresting him. But like anything you say, OTHER people are free to think what they want and react how they want within the law.

When you consider that Florida in general and Miami in particular is a cultural and political hub for Cuban exiles and refugees, many of whom have either personally experienced or have family tales of the atrocities of Fidel Castro, it is understandable that the Marlins wanted to take a strong, public stand in reacting as THEY are FREE to do, suspending him for five games. It's as much a message to their fans as it is to Guillen. It is worth remembering that many people took to unseaworthy crafts to escape Castro's oppresive regime and find freedom in Florida. Quite a few of them died in the attempt. That oughta tell you the nature of life under Casto.

Freedom to speak your mind is freedom from arrest, but it is not freedom from the consequences of what you say. The Miami Marlins are well within their rights as a business to do what they did. You are free, for example, to go into downtown Jerusalem, stand by the wailing wall, and cry out "Hitler is my HERO!" But don't be surprised if it has a negative impact on your employment prospects in Jerusalem.

Edited by DaddyO, 13 April 2012 - 08:42 PM.

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---------------------

There's an old saying, "The Proof Is In The Pudding."

Mariners 2012: It's Puddin' Time
Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?


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#3
Pirata Morado

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Nobody was forced to flee from Cuba, granted life might not be awesome there, but nobody forced those cubans to abandon their country.

Comparing Hitler to Castro seems way off to me, Castro didn't kill people just for race issues, but that's just my opinion
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#4
xarmyguy78

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I know this is going to raise a lot of controversy but anyway here it comes:

Why on earth was Ozzie suspended by the Marlins?

Unless I'm missing something all he did was say that he loves Fidel Castro, right?

I know Fidel isn't a hero for the US but that's not the point. The point is that I thought anyone is entitled to have an opinion, his is in favor of Fidel, so what? Can't he express his opnion freely? What am I missing here?

I can understand why it was such a big issue seeing as though he is employed in the city of Miami, but personally I think; from what I have heard anyway; that his comments were taken out of context. Why he made the comment in the magazine in the first place I am unsure of since I have not seen the article.
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#5
Lonnie

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Maybe we should shut this conversation down since we have such a far-flung group of people here who are not all of a like mind.

I can see this getting ugly real quick.
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#6
Shaggy

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Maybe we should shut this conversation down since we have such a far-flung group of people here who are not all of a like mind.

I can see this getting ugly real quick.


Move it if you need to but please don't lock it down. I'd like to see where this goes.

Freedom to speak your mind is freedom from arrest, but it is not freedom from the consequences of what you say.


This is something many don't understand. We CAN say what we want but it doesn't mean the person disagreeing doesn't have the right to express his rights as well. You have a right to tell your boss, "you suck" but he has a right to respond with "you're fired." Both exercised their rights.

Pirata, you might reconsider if you look at Castro during the time he took control of Cuba. He executed thousands without a trial for simply not embracing the "Revolution". It's understandable that many Cubans living in the Miami that lost friends, family and neighbors during that time might have a different view about him than you.

The Cubans that came to the USA and other countries were not free to leave. They escaped Cuba. How horrible does life have to be for people to put their family in small boats and set out into the ocean? I'd have to guess that it would be pretty damned bad.

Edited by Shaggy, 14 April 2012 - 05:31 AM.

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#7
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Whether Castro is a tyrant or a saint is a bit besides the point, the only thing that matters to the Marlins is that it's unpopular to make such a statement with their support base. It's about marketing rather than principles and morality. He could have said it while working in a different city and it probably wouldn't even have been an issue because few people would have cared enough to protest.

If Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck were social pariahs in Miami and he'd praised them then the response would have been the same. It's solely about presenting the company in a favourable way to their customers; the actual morality behind it is largely irrelevant.
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#8
DaddyO

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Look, I understand that there is bitterness between those Cubans who "chose" to stay, either because they'd rather suffer in their home country than live free in another, or because they were too fearful of the dangers of leaving, both to themselves and especially any family that remained, or because they were privileged by the Castro regime, or they saw no opportunity of leaving, or any other reason.

All you have to do is read a little history of situations like Russia under Staliln, World War 2 Germany under Hitler, post-World War 2 Eastern Europe under Stalin and his successors, China under Communist rule, and things are essentially the same, though flavored by unique cultures and histories. Totalitarianism is always the same. Thuggery, brutality, the murderous, single-minded will to power, propaganda, the willingness to imprison, torture and kill your own people in order to achieve your desired ends, and the employment of a police state to reach them.

Pirata, I'm sorry if my point of view on Castro offends you. I mean that in all sincerity. I do not wish to do so. You are an educated man, and I have great respect for you. I do not know how widely you have read the history of the twentieth century, indeed of the sweep of Western Civilization. I do not know if you have read books about Cuba and it's history, which of course is full of atrocities and criminal, heavy-handed rule by the original colonizers and many after them, including the Americans. For all I know, you have detailed and very specific knowledge of Cuba, more so than me.

But I have read too much of first-hand accounts and historical accounts of the cruel suffering totalitarian regimes have inflicted on their peoples, many of them in the name of social justice. Such people are fond of erecting gigantic posters and impressive statues, making their visage all-pervasive and godlike so as to convey the impression that they are to be revered (does Saddam Hussein ring a bell in this regard? Are you old enough to remember Mao Tse Tung posters?). Like the Berlin Wall, such people build walls to keep their own people from fleeing their terror more so than to keep enemies out. Castro needed no wall, only patrol boats that would deal mercilessly with anyone attempting to leave the island. They would brutalize any remaning relatives.

Speaking of the Berlin Wall, for it speaks to the oppression of a people by it's thug rulers, I had the opportunity as a young man in 1971 to spend a couple of days in the city as part of a traveling group. It was then that all I had read about the brutality of Communist rule became very real to me. We arranged a tour of the Berlin Wall in which we came to the wall area, boarded a bus, and were escorted through into the East German side of the wall, at which point our bus was boarded by armed East German border soldiers. The wall at this time was very much a hot spot and potential flash point in the Cold War. During the whole process you saw the elaborate and multi-layered barbed wire no-man's land that existed on the Eastern side of the wall (there was nothing comparable on the Western side, which spoke volumes about the purpose of the wall, which was to keep Germans from fleeing the terror of the regime.) The no-man's land was dominated by an endless string of militarized observation towers, manned by machine gun teams (which we could see) with searchlights, towers that stretched at regular intervals along the barrier as far as the eye could see in both directions. And there were tanks. Numbers of Soviet tanks, manned, cupolas open, sitting in watch behind the wall. In those days people were routinely shot attempting to flee through no-man's land. In fact, there had been such an incident a few days before in that very spot, IIRC. People in the West throw the word "police state"
around much too easily, using it as a political charge. In a real police state, when you publicly, and sometimes even privately denounce the regime you are subject to arrest, torture, and execution. You live in abject fear of doing something, anything, whether intended or not, that would attract the displeasure of the regime. You get used to the idea of people disappearing into the hands of the secret police. You fear not only for yourself, but for your family, which might be made and example of in order for the regime to enslave the people through that fear.

Boy, I've kind of gone on and on, as is my habit sometimes. But I run into a frustration even with my own grown kids who do not trouble themselves to read history, and so they only have the vague idea that bad things happen sometimes in history, or something that becomes the setting for a good movie. But they are not impressed by it, they are not riveted by it. It is something to be discussed along with the latest IPad. When a subject like this comes up I am compelled to hold a portrait up so far as I can for people to see. The refugees in Florida and their descendants know all about what I am describing. Whatever someone's political leanings, even if they are sympathetic to Castro's revolution (which sought to overthrow a truly odious state affairs at the time), the moment Fidel turned to totalitarian measures to advance and protect his regime he turned into a beast who tried to put on a pretty face to the world.

No doubt Guillen's comment was innocent enough. I am not the one out there trying to lynch the guy. It's majority of the Cuban-American community in Flordia that is outraged. They are more sensitive to the subject of Castro than I am. But no one should be surprised that once he made that innocent comment, even if being taken out of context, he has suffered public condemnation in Florida. It should be noted that Guillen has publicly and sincerely apologized. You know what, I even understand why some Americans hold leftist Latin American dictators in high regard. But I think that in order to do so they choose to ignore the essentially brutal nature of their regimes, whether through true ignorance, willing ignorance, or a belief that brutal things must sometimes be done in the name of social justice I do not know. (I should add that rightist thug regimes do the same things.) Sean Penn is enamored with Castro and Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. I can live with that, though I think it short-sighted and wrong. I can live with people not understanding why there would be such an uproar over a seemingly innocent comment. But just like Guillen is free to say what he thinks, I am free to rehearse why I understand the outrage.

Me, I think Guillen harbors certain private viewpoints that are shared by many Latin-Americans. I think he made an innocent comment that happened to reveal some of those private thoughts. It was never intended as a public pronouncement. It's not as if the guy wrote a book saying that Fidel was his hero. In my thinking, here in Seattle and far removed from Miami, I cannot imagine doing anything more to Guillen than sitting him down, going over with him why his comments caused such a furor, admonishing him to be careful with his comments, and then asking him to trot out to a press conference to make a sincere apology with me standing right behind him. That's what I would do. I would not suspend him. But I don't live in Miami either, and I don't have a multi-million dollar business that depends on the goodwill of the people of Miami.

Let's remember, the Miami Marlins are not seeking to put Guillen in jail. They just suspended him for five games to make a public statement.


***********

P.S. If anyone wants to read for themselves how totalitarian regimes really behave, and what the reality is like for those poor souls living under them, read about Pol Pot in Cambodia, North Korea under Kim Jong Il and Kim Il Sung. Read about Prague, Czechoslovakia in 1968, Budapest, Hungary in 1956, Warsaw, Poland in 1945. Read about Stalin's rise to power in the Soviet Union, how he purged the officer corps of his military by having thousands upon thousands (no exxageration) shot, this only being a small example of what played out in the general population. Read about Hitler's thug regime, his seizure of power, and the utter brutality of his proxies' conduct towards civilians in occupied countries. Folks, this stuff goes beyind left/right. This stuff goes to the very heart of civilization.

One of the common themes when you read about such things is how the helpless people who suffer cry out "Somebody pay attention! Look at what's happening to us? Is nobody going to help us? Is nobody going to do anything? Is nobody going to say anything? Is nobody going to remember what happened here?"

Well, I for one will, as occasion arises, be a voice to remind people. The aphorism is true. Those who fail to remember history are often doomed to repeat it. Comparing the excesses of civililzed regimes to the purposeful brutality of thug regimes and being content to consider them morally equivalent only enables thug regimes and makes one susceptible to their propaganda.

Edited by DaddyO, 14 April 2012 - 08:41 AM.

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---------------------

There's an old saying, "The Proof Is In The Pudding."

Mariners 2012: It's Puddin' Time
Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?


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#9
DaddyO

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Whether Castro is a tyrant or a saint is a bit besides the point, the only thing that matters to the Marlins is that it's unpopular to make such a statement with their support base. It's about marketing rather than principles and morality. He could have said it while working in a different city and it probably wouldn't even have been an issue because few people would have cared enough to protest.

If Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck were social pariahs in Miami and he'd praised them then the response would have been the same. It's solely about presenting the company in a favourable way to their customers; the actual morality behind it is largely irrelevant.


Exactly. :cpoint:
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---------------------

There's an old saying, "The Proof Is In The Pudding."

Mariners 2012: It's Puddin' Time
Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?


Posted Image

#10
Shaggy

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I've come to the conclusion that Mickey Mouse is evil too. I have no explanation how that mouse is able extract money faster than the government, while visiting him at his "magic kingdom", and I smile about it. :)
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#11
Pirata Morado

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Look, I understand that there is bitterness between those Cubans who "chose" to stay, either because they'd rather suffer in their home country than live free in another, or because they were too fearful of the dangers of leaving, both to themselves and especially any family that remained, or because they were privileged by the Castro regime, or they saw no opportunity of leaving, or any other reason.

All you have to do is read a little history of situations like Russia under Staliln, World War 2 Germany under Hitler, post-World War 2 Eastern Europe under Stalin and his successors, China under Communist rule, and things are essentially the same, though flavored by unique cultures and histories. Totalitarianism is always the same. Thuggery, brutality, the murderous, single-minded will to power, propaganda, the willingness to imprison, torture and kill your own people in order to achieve your desired ends, and the employment of a police state to reach them.

Pirata, I'm sorry if my point of view on Castro offends you. I mean that in all sincerity. I do not wish to do so. You are an educated man, and I have great respect for you. I do not know how widely you have read the history of the twentieth century, indeed of the sweep of Western Civilization. I do not know if you have read books about Cuba and it's history, which of course is full of atrocities and criminal, heavy-handed rule by the original colonizers and many after them, including the Americans. For all I know, you have detailed and very specific knowledge of Cuba, more so than me.

But I have read too much of first-hand accounts and historical accounts of the cruel suffering totalitarian regimes have inflicted on their peoples, many of them in the name of social justice. Such people are fond of erecting gigantic posters and impressive statues, making their visage all-pervasive and godlike so as to convey the impression that they are to be revered (does Saddam Hussein ring a bell in this regard? Are you old enough to remember Mao Tse Tung posters?). Like the Berlin Wall, such people build walls to keep their own people from fleeing their terror more so than to keep enemies out. Castro needed no wall, only patrol boats that would deal mercilessly with anyone attempting to leave the island. They would brutalize any remaning relatives.

Speaking of the Berlin Wall, for it speaks to the oppression of a people by it's thug rulers, I had the opportunity as a young man in 1971 to spend a couple of days in the city as part of a traveling group. It was then that all I had read about the brutality of Communist rule became very real to me. We arranged a tour of the Berlin Wall in which we came to the wall area, boarded a bus, and were escorted through into the East German side of the wall, at which point our bus was boarded by armed East German border soldiers. The wall at this time was very much a hot spot and potential flash point in the Cold War. During the whole process you saw the elaborate and multi-layered barbed wire no-man's land that existed on the Eastern side of the wall (there was nothing comparable on the Western side, which spoke volumes about the purpose of the wall, which was to keep Germans from fleeing the terror of the regime.) The no-man's land was dominated by an endless string of militarized observation towers, manned by machine gun teams (which we could see) with searchlights, towers that stretched at regular intervals along the barrier as far as the eye could see in both directions. And there were tanks. Numbers of Soviet tanks, manned, cupolas open, sitting in watch behind the wall. In those days people were routinely shot attempting to flee through no-man's land. In fact, there had been such an incident a few days before in that very spot, IIRC. People in the West throw the word "police state"
around much too easily, using it as a political charge. In a real police state, when you publicly, and sometimes even privately denounce the regime you are subject to arrest, torture, and execution. You live in abject fear of doing something, anything, whether intended or not, that would attract the displeasure of the regime. You get used to the idea of people disappearing into the hands of the secret police. You fear not only for yourself, but for your family, which might be made and example of in order for the regime to enslave the people through that fear.

Boy, I've kind of gone on and on, as is my habit sometimes. But I run into a frustration even with my own grown kids who do not trouble themselves to read history, and so they only have the vague idea that bad things happen sometimes in history, or something that becomes the setting for a good movie. But they are not impressed by it, they are not riveted by it. It is something to be discussed along with the latest IPad. When a subject like this comes up I am compelled to hold a portrait up so far as I can for people to see. The refugees in Florida and their descendants know all about what I am describing. Whatever someone's political leanings, even if they are sympathetic to Castro's revolution (which sought to overthrow a truly odious state affairs at the time), the moment Fidel turned to totalitarian measures to advance and protect his regime he turned into a beast who tried to put on a pretty face to the world.

No doubt Guillen's comment was innocent enough. I am not the one out there trying to lynch the guy. It's majority of the Cuban-American community in Flordia that is outraged. They are more sensitive to the subject of Castro than I am. But no one should be surprised that once he made that innocent comment, even if being taken out of context, he has suffered public condemnation in Florida. It should be noted that Guillen has publicly and sincerely apologized. You know what, I even understand why some Americans hold leftist Latin American dictators in high regard. But I think that in order to do so they choose to ignore the essentially brutal nature of their regimes, whether through true ignorance, willing ignorance, or a belief that brutal things must sometimes be done in the name of social justice I do not know. (I should add that rightist thug regimes do the same things.) Sean Penn is enamored with Castro and Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. I can live with that, though I think it short-sighted and wrong. I can live with people not understanding why there would be such an uproar over a seemingly innocent comment. But just like Guillen is free to say what he thinks, I am free to rehearse why I understand the outrage.

Me, I think Guillen harbors certain private viewpoints that are shared by many Latin-Americans. I think he made an innocent comment that happened to reveal some of those private thoughts. It was never intended as a public pronouncement. It's not as if the guy wrote a book saying that Fidel was his hero. In my thinking, here in Seattle and far removed from Miami, I cannot imagine doing anything more to Guillen than sitting him down, going over with him why his comments caused such a furor, admonishing him to be careful with his comments, and then asking him to trot out to a press conference to make a sincere apology with me standing right behind him. That's what I would do. I would not suspend him. But I don't live in Miami either, and I don't have a multi-million dollar business that depends on the goodwill of the people of Miami.

Let's remember, the Miami Marlins are not seeking to put Guillen in jail. They just suspended him for five games to make a public statement.


***********

P.S. If anyone wants to read for themselves how totalitarian regimes really behave, and what the reality is like for those poor souls living under them, read about Pol Pot in Cambodia, North Korea under Kim Jong Il and Kim Il Sung. Read about Prague, Czechoslovakia in 1968, Budapest, Hungary in 1956, Warsaw, Poland in 1945. Read about Stalin's rise to power in the Soviet Union, how he purged the officer corps of his military by having thousands upon thousands (no exxageration) shot, this only being a small example of what played out in the general population. Read about Hitler's thug regime, his seizure of power, and the utter brutality of his proxies' conduct towards civilians in occupied countries. Folks, this stuff goes beyind left/right. This stuff goes to the very heart of civilization.

One of the common themes when you read about such things is how the helpless people who suffer cry out "Somebody pay attention! Look at what's happening to us? Is nobody going to help us? Is nobody going to do anything? Is nobody going to say anything? Is nobody going to remember what happened here?"

Well, I for one will, as occasion arises, be a voice to remind people. The aphorism is true. Those who fail to remember history are often doomed to repeat it. Comparing the excesses of civililzed regimes to the purposeful brutality of thug regimes and being content to consider them morally equivalent only enables thug regimes and makes one susceptible to their propaganda.

DaddyO.

First of all. Thanks for your sincerity. No, I'm not offended by your point of view about Castro. I knew in advance that this was going to raise a lot of controversy. But I wanted to try to understand this. You helped me a lot to understand your view. I understand it now, I don't share it, but I respect it, and as you said, the Marlins are entitled to do whatever they want too, and all they did was suspend Ozzie, which isn't a lot either. Anunderwater guy total nails it.

I've learned that history has 3 versions: one side's version, the other side's and the truth. Perhaps that's why I never liked History as a school subject. I am a mathematician, because in math you are either right or wrong, but you can't be parcially right.

My view about the thing in Cuba is completely different than yours. I'm sure some of what I believe may be wrong, as some of what you said may be wrong too, who knows what the reality was? I've been to Cuba, I was there in 1989 to cellebrate Mexico's "fourth of July" which is September 15th. Actually Fidel Castro went to the embassy of Mexico in Havana, stayed there a few hours, drank one shot of tequila and left. I can tell you it was a very interesting "meeting" with him. Of course I was very young and I didn't have a chance to chat with him. But it was interesting nonetheless.

Cuba was a brothel before Castro. Cuba was a casino, and people were suffering there a lot, particularly poor people. So Castro started the revolution and sent Batista out of Cuba. Of course many of Batista followers had to flee Cuba. Then what happened? USA blocked Cuba. No american country could have commerce with Cuba. Cuba only produced tobacco and sugar cane. But they needed help to get other things. And what did the US do? They blocked them but also "forced" all other american countries to avoid helping Cuba. They thought that by doing this Fidel would eventually surrender. But that didn't happen. He was "forced" to join with the Soviet Union and become "communists". Thanks to the help of the Soviet Union Cuba could survive. What has amazed me is how have they been able to survive once the USSR collapsed and they have not been given help by them.

Mexico was one of the only countries who have always helped Cuba. Fidel lived in Mexico when he was planning the revolution, so he has a special love for Mexico. Ater the blockage, Mexico somehow sent some help to Cuba, so their people wouldn't starve, that's why cubans like mexicans. Of course this is the "pink" vision of Cuba, which of course, I'm not so naive, might not be all true. But in my visit there I saw happy people, and I saw no extreme poverty. Granted, they are not rich, but they are not poor either. Everybody goes to school, everybody has a job, everybody has a meal daily. Books are very cheap there, so everybody reads a lot. The State gives you healthcare, so you don't have to pay for expensive doctors. And doctors are very good there! They are very good at sports. They love baseball, but they are also very good at voleyball, athletics, etc. I don't think everything's wrong there. It's just not how we see life, it's different. But at least compared to Mexico, where there are people living in the streets, without school, without a job, without healthcare, Cuba seems like a heaven to them.

I understand what you mean about a totalitaian government. Castro was the president of Cuba for TOO many years. That's what I can agree with you. Yes, they don't have freedom to leave their country, which I don't agree either. But once you consider all the complications they've had, particularly about not being able to get any help from ANY country in America, I think that Fidel did pretty good in saving his own people. At least that's also an idea I got when I went there. People who live there really appreciate what he's done for them.

--------

I've also been long here, sorry. Thanks for your comments, all. I understand better now the Marlins decision. I just think that Ozzie didn't make any negative comments against the Cubans living in the USA, that's why I thought the Marlins' decision seemed inappropiate to me.

Edited by Pirata Morado, 14 April 2012 - 10:48 AM.

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#12
DaddyO

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Thanks, Pirata. You're a classy guy, and one a person can carry on a conversation with. I don't have time right now to go into as much length a my prior post, but I want to affirm as I indicated briefly that Castro's revolution definitely included aspect of nobility and was prompted because Cuba had become nothing but a playground for rich people and haven for corruption, mostly from the U.S. but also others. On this, you and I agree. I am in no means defending those whose exploitations and corruptions gave impetus to the revolution.

I imagine you would have lot of things to say about Mexico and it's current situation, which is different from Cuba's but plagued by corruption and gangsters.

U.S.-oreinted history tends to emphasize the Cold War events of Cuba and brush aside the sufferings of its people except to paint Castro and (some time ago) its Soviet sponsor as bogeymen. No doubt about it. What I object to is the idea that we can simply move on from Castro's atrocities by saying "there's three points of view, one side, the other, and the truth." That's what I consider moral equivalence. I may be mistaken in your case, but in general I find that tends to ignore the vast gulf between totalitarian thugs and civilized nations. Just my opinion.
  • 0
---------------------

There's an old saying, "The Proof Is In The Pudding."

Mariners 2012: It's Puddin' Time
Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?


Posted Image

#13
Pirata Morado

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Thanks, Pirata. You're a classy guy, and one a person can carry on a conversation with. I don't have time right now to go into as much length a my prior post, but I want to affirm as I indicated briefly that Castro's revolution definitely included aspect of nobility and was prompted because Cuba had become nothing but a playground for rich people and haven for corruption, mostly from the U.S. but also others. On this, you and I agree. I am in no means defending those whose exploitations and corruptions gave impetus to the revolution.

I imagine you would have lot of things to say about Mexico and it's current situation, which is different from Cuba's but plagued by corruption and gangsters.

U.S.-oreinted history tends to emphasize the Cold War events of Cuba and brush aside the sufferings of its people except to paint Castro and (some time ago) its Soviet sponsor as bogeymen. No doubt about it. What I object to is the idea that we can simply move on from Castro's atrocities by saying "there's three points of view, one side, the other, and the truth." That's what I consider moral equivalence. I may be mistaken in your case, but in general I find that tends to ignore the vast gulf between totalitarian thugs and civilized nations. Just my opinion.

Thanks DaddyO, I'm humbled.

I think we agree in the most important aspects of this issue.

This was, as usual, a very enlightning thread. Thanks again.
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#14
Chaos_Effect

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It's hardly the stupidest thing Ozzie has ever said, but I think the Marlins just had to suspend him given their large Cuban fanbase. Don't want to alienate the fans when they are just coming back to the team on account of the new ballpark.
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#15
Vidya

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Had Guillen made the statement when he was still working for the White Sox no one would have noticed. At least that's my opinion. I believe he only meant that Castro was good at being a dictator, which is obvious. Also, before Castro Cuba was essentially owned and operated by the US mafia. Who really knows if it was the US that drove him to side with the Soviets or if that was his plan all along? OK, I don't, maybe someone else has real proof, but I haven't seen any either way. There have been much worse communist dictators, but a communist state is a communist state. The good news about communism is that there is no poverty, homelessness, and free health care for all. The bad news is that there is also no middle class and no political freedom.

Anyway, that is all history now. There is no more Cold War and the Soviet Empire is long gone. The time is long overdue for the US to normalize relations with Cuba, but the politics of South Florida prevent that. Florida is a swing state in most political elections and no political party wants to upset the Cubans in Florida for the same reason the Marlins don't.

As a baseball fan I wish that relations would improve between the two countries, and MLB has tried to help improve the situation. Their effort met with no success, but Fidel and his brother can't live forever. My opinion on the broader issue is that normal relations with the US would bring democracy to Cuba much faster than the economic embargo. If an embargo doesn't work in 50 years, there's no chance it will ever work. Some may see that as a leftist position, but I just see it as a reality position.
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My 2014 AAP's:
James Jones, Rainiers outfielder extraordinaire.

Ji-Man Choi, Rainiers slugging first baseman.

Carson Smith, Rainiers bullpen.

Logan Kensing, Rainiers bullpen.

Jesus Montero, trimmed down and ready to go.

Sorry, Ji-Man, but really? Maybe when you get off the restricted list, Montero will have been promoted. 

Carson is doing a fine job, but Logan has been dominant and deserves recognition.


#16
Pirata Morado

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Very well said vidya, I agree
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#17
Señor Octobre

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Ozzie has to have mental problems. Not only did Castro take eveything these people had, but he tried to destroy thier tradition and culture. They were not able to worship in their traditional way. They were not allowed to celebrate in their traditional way or eat traditional meals that they have for generations. The Marlins new stadiium sits in the heart of Little Havana, where a large Cuban population resides. this is pure stupid and to later say his english is not very good and he quoted wrongly, is just a slap in the face to every person on the earth. Dumb !
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Mariner Central Adopt-A-Players: 

DJ Petterson
Victor Sanchez
Luis Liberato

Greg Halman RIP

 http://compassrosy.com/<p> 

#18
AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Had Guillen made the statement when he was still working for the White Sox no one would have noticed. At least that's my opinion. I believe he only meant that Castro was good at being a dictator, which is obvious. Also, before Castro Cuba was essentially owned and operated by the US mafia. Who really knows if it was the US that drove him to side with the Soviets or if that was his plan all along? OK, I don't, maybe someone else has real proof, but I haven't seen any either way. There have been much worse communist dictators, but a communist state is a communist state. The good news about communism is that there is no poverty, homelessness, and free health care for all. The bad news is that there is also no middle class and no political freedom.

Anyway, that is all history now. There is no more Cold War and the Soviet Empire is long gone. The time is long overdue for the US to normalize relations with Cuba, but the politics of South Florida prevent that. Florida is a swing state in most political elections and no political party wants to upset the Cubans in Florida for the same reason the Marlins don't.

As a baseball fan I wish that relations would improve between the two countries, and MLB has tried to help improve the situation. Their effort met with no success, but Fidel and his brother can't live forever. My opinion on the broader issue is that normal relations with the US would bring democracy to Cuba much faster than the economic embargo. If an embargo doesn't work in 50 years, there's no chance it will ever work. Some may see that as a leftist position, but I just see it as a reality position.


No matter what at the end of the day the MLB is still a business. I highly doubt that they're going to want their managers claiming their love over dictators. As for the relations for Cuba and America it's a two street I'd rather America not bother to deal with a country where people feel the need to cross shark infested waters in order to get a better left. If you want to do business with America then play ball with American values. Of course I know this hasn't always been the case but what next ? Is America going to align itself with North Korea ?

The only real country that gets a pass is Canada and that's just because of their location if Canada was somewhere else I doubt they'd be on friendly terms with America also.

Edited by AlMoStLeGeNdArY, 18 April 2012 - 01:03 PM.

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#19
Grumpy

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Ozzie has to have mental problems. Not only did Castro take eveything these people had, but he tried to destroy thier tradition and culture. They were not able to worship in their traditional way. They were not allowed to celebrate in their traditional way or eat traditional meals that they have for generations. The Marlins new stadiium sits in the heart of Little Havana, where a large Cuban population resides. this is pure stupid and to later say his english is not very good and he quoted wrongly, is just a slap in the face to every person on the earth. Dumb !


Probably it is more ignorance than anything else. Same with the people that wear Che t shirts. Sure they look cool but if those people really knew what Che was like (as opposed to the shallow construction/popular legend) and the things he did most would probably decline to wear them.
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#20
phredmojo

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Ozzie has to have mental problems. Not only did Castro take eveything these people had, but he tried to destroy thier tradition and culture. They were not able to worship in their traditional way. They were not allowed to celebrate in their traditional way or eat traditional meals that they have for generations. The Marlins new stadiium sits in the heart of Little Havana, where a large Cuban population resides. this is pure stupid and to later say his english is not very good and he quoted wrongly, is just a slap in the face to every person on the earth. Dumb !

he's no different then 80% of hollywood
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RIP Ichidman51............say hello to wildman and Ray_Oyler_fan...you will be missed my friend




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